Looking beyond "Dumb"

When I began blogging three and a half years ago, I used a blog site* that was geared toward home schoolers.**  While I rambled on about many different things (that's a shocker, I know), initially my blog focus was on our home schooling lives.  Then I moved over to Typepad and knitting sort of began to take over my posts and now I think I've gotten to the point where the is just a blog about me and my life.

Last night I was reading one of the blogs I subscribe to, The Ever-Changing Life of a Military Wife.  Casey, the author was venting about things she labeled "Dumb".  Casey is a young military wife and kindergarten teacher stationed in Germany.  #4 on her list was this:

4. Home school. And homeschoolers who say the worst day in homeschool is better than the best day in public school. Having a baby doesn't make you a qualified teacher. And while were on the subject- socializing your kid with other unsocialized kids does not alleviate the problem.

I read that and thought, "Hmmm...really."  I know that many people do not agree with home schooling, which is fair enough since I don't agree with public schooling.  At first, I wanted to just click away and forget about.  I could just unsubscribe from her blog and never read it again.  She's got the same absolute right to post her thoughts and feelings just like I do.  It's her blog.  But it is her blog and when she puts something out there for the public to read, then I think she can expect to get a public response.  

So I opened up the comment box and composed several comments, all of which I deleted.  There was some deep breathing involved while I lectured myself not to type anything that I would not say to her face to face.  I don't even know Casey other than what she has revealed of herself on the blog and a snotty and disrespectful comment does nothing to get my point across.

Here is what I commented:

Oh wow. I've enjoyed your blog very much up until today. I go out of my way not to bash the public school system. However, there are a lot of "qualified" teachers out there that I wouldn't trust to educate my dog. I'm not going to bother defending home schooling, since you clearly have your strong opinions about it. But thanks for reminding me why it's the right choice for our family.

And Casey very kindly responded to me with a comment here:

Ah, sorry. I meant no offense to you and to those that take home schooling seriously and do it well. We had two people come into our school this week who have been homeschooling and both of their kids are about a year behind academically. Their parents chose homeschooling for the wrong reasons and the kid suffered. It upset me very much to see. Add that to the PMS and I was pretty pissed off. I totally agree that there are public school teachers I wouldn't trust my kid with. In college I was already making a list of teachers my child could never have. I suppose homeschooling is the same way- very dependent on the teacher.

Okay, see?  There was no great conversion to the other's point of view from this exchange, but we were both mature and respectful about it.  And the truth is, there ARE some home schoolers out there who perhaps should not be teaching their children at home. 

If only I had not returned to her blog to look at more of the comments.  Here are some of them:

I have a freakin' law degree and don't feel qualified to homeschool my kids. I can't do math to save my life and should NEVER be trusted to teach my children math. And really, teaching kids out of a work book their entire lives? Um, that doesn't strike me as exceptionally educational. There was a proposed bill in CA a while back that was actually going to make homeschooling (unless you had a teaching license) illegal. I think I would support that, you know, if I lived in CA! And really, how the heck are you supposed to socialize your kids?!?! (Sorry mini-rant, homeschooling is at the top of my "irk list")

Great list :)

Whew.  This comment to me seems based in a lack of knowledge.  I definitely don't consider myself a math scholar, but I have relearned math right alongside my kids.  I know very few home schoolers who teach kids out of a work book their entire lives.  Alex spent last year doing nothing but science experiments for that subject, from building a robot to making slime to working with lasers.  And the socialization thing just KILLS me.  Do they think we keep them locked away all day, out of contact with any other people?  Our home school group in Georgia was a great example of kids that were wonderfully socialized.  Not only with other home schoolers, but with anyone.  I maintain that public school is a completely artificial environment for socialization, often breeding more hostility and defensiveness among children rather than the ability "socialize".

I have never been homeschooled/feel inclined to homeschool, but I have always wondered if those children ever REALLY learn anything.

Hahahaha!!!  I say the same thing about public schoolers!  This commenter should perhaps talk to some college administrators about the quality of education that most home schoolers exhibit. 

My mom is a teacher. She has a new student who just came from a Pace curriculum. If you've never heard of it, it's worse than homeschooling. The kids have workbooks and can finish the assignments at their own pace. What elementary student would ever finish any assignment without a due date? My mom is having lots of problems with that student.

Okay, I know the Pace curriculum and it's definitely not one of my favorites, but that has nothing to do with the format.  Worse than homeschooling?  I don't even know what that commenter means with this, since Pace is generally used as home schooling curriculum.  What elementary student would finish an assignment without a due date?  How about an obedient child who understands what is expected?  And let me point out that home schooling does involve due dates.  Most of us do not hand over the workbooks and tell the child to go ahead, finish it whenever.

home schooled kids are always weird and socially awkward

This is my favorite comment.  I wonder how many home schoolers this person has met?  That is incredibly sweeping generalization that reveals far more about the commenter than about home schooling.  And I can guarantee you does not apply to my children.

A kid who likes home schooling? Of course they do, they don't have to sit in a classroom all day w/a bunch of kids doing work. From what I can tell, most home school kids I've known don't have many friends, they've never had to learn how to deal with conflict, and they don't learn much since they get to play and watch tv all day. School was usually the only break from my parents I got. Not just that, they don't get the joy of group activities or a real class trip. I realize public schools aren't the greatest (boy do I!) but I got a better education there then I would have at home. Just the fact that my parent's couldn't help me out with my homework after the 5th grade should be a indication of that.

I hope this lady never talks to my kids.  They are going to be really pissed off to find out that they are supposed to be playing and watching tv all day and I've had them learning!  Yes, a home schooling parent has to make the effort to ensure that the kids have the opportunity to experience activities and the conflicts and joys that accompany them, but it's not difficult.  And many parents cannot help with the kid's homework because they are not involved in the teaching of it.

Oh my god, you are full of yourself aren't you? How about as the Christian that you claim to be, if you followed that sage advice- if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. There are OVER ONE AND A HALF MILLION home schooled children in America, thanks so much for enlightening us all on how you are right and they are all wrong. I feel SO sorry for the kids that you teach and the parents of those kids. I'm pretty sure they'd be better off being home schooled. To the people that actually read this blog and think you are so flipping funny and great, seriously, take a minute to click on the "school" tag and ACTUALLY read what this "teacher" has written. Casey, you make fun of your students, you make fun of the parents, you post pictures of their school work, you post pictures of the kids- do you have the parents permission to do that??? How many of you parents reading this would think it was so funny if that were YOUR kid she was poking fun at and posting pictures of on the internet without your permission? I think its sad you even still have a job teaching children.

Mmm...yeah, that's not helpful.  I give Casey credit for leaving this comment up.  I consider my blog to be my internet home.  If someone came into my actual home and insulted me like that, they would not be welcome.  Same here on the blog.  I have no issue deleting comments that are rude or offensive.  By the end of the comment (and there's more that did not apply to the home schooling issue that I did not include here) the reader is left with only the anger and none of the point of the comment.

I'm not out to convert the whole internet to the wonderful rightness of home schooling.  It is a choice that works for our family.  I very often have my doubts if this is the best thing for the kids.  Moving here, I have contemplated putting them into public school and I may try to have them partipate in the school's extra-academic subjects like art or band this year.  I want to challenge them and expand their boundaries, whether it is with me at home or with another system outside the home.

After nine years of home schooling, I have learned that it's not about the academics.  Kids can learn in many ways, in many places, from many people.  Home schooling is not a ticket to brilliant, well-educated, sophisticated children.  It's about the relationship.  It's about knowing your kids.  It's about learning their strengths and weaknesses and guiding them.  It's about expecting the best from them.  I did this when they were toddlers, why would I have ceased when they became school age?  It's about family.

This sounds like I'm saying that parents who send the kids to public school don't do any of these things.  No, not at all.  I'm a product of the public schools.  But I disagree that just because you are a parent doesn't mean you can teach your child.  Oh yes, it does.  It's not easy, it's not to be done alone, and it's not perfect.  But it is that simple.

*I think that old blog still lives at www.homeschoolblogger.com/not1worry.

**I have a hard time bringing myself to type anything regarding home school as one word.  It seems like the combination of the words, as in "homeschooling", "homeschoolers", etc. has become the norm now, but it just seems wrong to me.  No one writes "publicschooling" or "privateschoolers".

29 August - Before there's any deceased equine violence, I am closing the comments.  Thank you so much to everyone who has respectfully participated in this discussion.

Comments

[hokgardner]

It's an interesting discussion, and it's a shame that the comments descended into anger.

I've pondered home schooling, but I know my temperament all too well, and it wouldn't be a good deal for any of us. So I take an active role in my kids' schools and classrooms and work to give them "extra" stuff at home.

In the end, it does all boil down to what works for each family. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

[amy]

I don't read Casey's blog, but thank you for airing the discussion here. I think it's dumb (although I find even the word "dumb" to be rather simplistic) to make broad, sweeping generalizations about any choice or any segment of the population. As we pondered enrolling the boys in school, I kept hearing the word "socialized," and it drives me crazy. My children are socialized. I do not keep them locked in a box. There are knowledgeable people out there, and there are those who base their opinions on the same old tired stereotypes.

I will say that FOR US, living HERE, we were unable to find a good, stable, nearby homeschooling group. We did plenty of activities, but not with the same people long-term, and that is one of the main reasons I am excited to send my kids to school. On the other hand, if spots hadn't opened up at this particular school, we'd still be homeschooling. It's a balance, and each family needs to find their own way.

As for whether or not parents are "qualified" to teach their own children... I will answer with this: a goodly number of my high school classmates decided to go into teaching, especially the younger grades. I heard comments such as, "I'll get summers off" and "How hard can second grade be, I already passed it!" My reasons for teaching my own children are infinitely better and more well-thought-out than those reasons for going into teaching. I know some wonderful teachers, but they are not any more or less qualified to teach simply because they have a degree, most of which--because I looked into teaching--is classes on theory and crowd control. All the wonderful teachers I have known put the time in to educate themselves beyond their college curriculum, and I have done that as well.

TV all day? Sorry, I'm laughing too hard to address that one.

(I write "homeschooling" as one word because it seems more organic, more in line with the nature of what homeschooling is. It's the same reason I write "breastfeeding" as one word. That also began as two words. When I was a medical copy editor, we were told to separate it, until an author on a breastfeeding article educated my supervisor: breastfeeding is not separate--the mother and the baby are linked, and the word should reflect that, whereas "bottle feeding" is not the same. This is not to say better, or worse, but different. The author was very eloquent. I wasn't a mother yet, but I was impressed with her explanation, which I've completely failed to reproduce adequately here because it was a long time ago!)

[sally]

I home schooled my son and i discovered it is not worth the argument....my husband and i decided in our early years that we would home school and we did....my son is now a Naval Nuclear Electrician working on his undergraduate degree in Nuclear Physics....i only home schooled him through the eighth grade....he went to public high school...but he will tell you himself how much he appreciates his home schooling years....school itself is not forever....just like childhood is not forever...hopefully....cuz i know a few people that have never realized that yet....it is supposed to be a time to prepare you to be an adult....for us it was a time to develop the ability to think for yourself...to question the status quo....to due your own diligence....to look it up yourself....to research it yourself....to find that place where you can get the answer and have the humility to know that you don't have all the answers and you don't have to have them....life is hard and often disappointing....if your family structure allows you the place and the grace to keep you children in close contact with you for a little longer so you can help them build a set of values and character qualities that will let them face the world with some support then good for you ......and them.....

[willemtje]

Isn't it wonderful that so many people seem to be experts in education?
I myself was sort of home-schooled in the Netherlands, on the freight ship I lived on with my parents, neither of whom had finished primary school. My parents were therefore unable to help me much with my work.
My home-schooling existed of worksheets that could be checked at certain schools dotted around the country. If completed satisfactorily, I would then get a new set of worksheets.
Sometimes I was able to attend school if we stayed at a certain town or village for a few days at the time.
However, my parents took me everywhere, zoos, cathedrals, museums, and there were always books and magazines to read.
When I was nine (this was in 1952) I went to boarding school and attended school regularly for the first time.
Eventually I became a teacher of English. Home-schooling was a good start for me and I am sure it is a good option if parents are motivated. As long as they are provided with the right material and their curiosity is stimulated, children will pick up a tremendous amount of knowledge.
Good luck to you and your children.

[Chris]

I wish the whole political arena could come to a well reasoned response and counter response. But no, we have devolved into shouting and shoving.

I do not home school because I am prepared to be organized and timely. But before putting our kids into public/private school, we researched and visited the available schools in our area. We went with the public system because the teachers there were top notch, but more important, the principals were the best in the city. We built a house in the district so our kids could attend those public schools.

We just lost the Middle School Principal to retirement, as we did the Elem one a few years ago. The MS replacement, both Prin and Asst Prin, look to be a wonderful duo. Now hopefully the High School Prin won't retire until our Youngest gets through her MS and HS years.

[Orghlaith]

I love a healthy discussion. There is much to learn from all sides. My son is developmentally disabled. We are not 'allowed' to say retarded although that is the correct definition. His public education was merely placekeeping. I taught him to read before first grade. He taught himself to write cursive. We were called in to the school on more than one occasion when I protested the lack of education they provided. We pulled him out and moved him to another school district where his teacher realized his potential and moved him through three grades in one year. Then she was promoted to a supervisory position and we were back to teaching him at home while allowing him to attend school for the experience. The school graduated our son at age 18 even though he never attended any classes other than his placekeeping class. My opinion is that public schools are political entities and very few good teachers get the opportunity to do their best work. Any in depth study of US schools will show that the classes are too large. The children often get lost in the crowd. Home schooling provides the personal attention to each child's strengths and weaknesses. Some parents may not have the personal characteristics that their children need to be educated at home. But all parents are educators. They are the example their children see every day. It takes courage and commitment to home school. And as for TV......I have no good opinion of US television programming. We gave up watching TV a long time ago. And don't miss it. Okay, now I sound like some radical off-the-grid ex-hippy. We would rather read newspapers, magazines, books, and peruse the internet for information.

I could write on and on about this. Education has traditionally been a family project. Only recently have public schools become the law. It would be an interesting study to find out which of the great thinkers throughout the ages went to public schools.

[Casey]

I saw all sorts of people coming from your site today and I got scared. I couldn't handle another screamer today. I must say, I was pleasantly surprised. Thank you also for being polite in expressing your side of the education debate. Unfortunately it is a polarizing issue and seems to bring out fiery opinions. I leave comments like the last one up because it's just that out of control. I want people to see what is said. However, when she began to post specifics about my town and job I had to take the post down. I will certainly continue to keep up with your Italian adventures, and hope you stick with me as well. No more homeschool posts, I promise. :)

[Tammy]

Good job in handling your response Becca... and it's nice to see Casey's last response here too.

Oh gosh... so many things come to my mind o this subject! I don't even know where to start so I'll be brief. I've been homeschooling for 12 years now and have come to cringe whenever I hear blanket statements on either side. I currently have 2 high schoolers... on at home, one in public shool, as well as three younger sons at home.

I see pros and cons in both worlds. Without going into all of those or defending my position, suffice it to say that I pray each year that I will do right by my kids and we do what we feel is best for our family over time. I trust that others do the same.

(((Hugs))) to you Becca for speaking your mind so well. :)

[Ava]

If I haven't said so in the past, I teach 7th grade English, have two 18-year-olds heading to college in four days, and never ever could have home schooled either of them. Period. I know myself, I know my children, and it would not have worked out well for us.

One of the orchestras that they were involved in had many home schooled children in it who came from a variety of different schooling backgrounds. Some had worksheets only, some had parents who took them to tons of museums, some were in structured programs, some not so much. The only time I got really irked was when a mom commented that teaching her kids was easy because she could count brushing teeth as health instruction. Teaching isn't easy . . . people who get into teaching because they think it is are precisely the kind of folks you don't want teaching your kids. Summers are my payback for the countless weekends I spend grading and planning and fretting over children who don't share one ounce of my DNA (and even that payback is limited to a smaller portion year after year).

Every year I have a few students who are new to the public school system. And every year, they go through the same growing pains that most of my students had in first grade. Most come through it with flying colors . . . some flounder. Every year I also have a few students whose parents pull them out in favor of cyber-school or home schooling. Those kids are usually back before the end of the next school year because their parents pulled them out for the wrong reasons.

Home school vs. public school is a debate that isn't going away any time soon. But a healthy debate - one that doesn't call names or bash people - is good for everyone . . . so well done, Becca!

[Suna]

Great post--yet another example of how black and white thinking on any side of an argument can make a person look ignorant and alienate others. After my many years in La Leche League and hanging around with the attachment parenting folks, observing them and their kids, I have become a firm believer in doing what you think works best for you, your children and your family. And I think what is best may change over time, and that doesn't mean you "failed" at what worked earlier.

[tana]

I have no children and I'm no longer a teacher so I have no dog in this fight. I just wanted to say - well done you on a calm, rational but honest response.

[Mrs. C]

trouble commenting...

[Mrs. C]

Um, I looked at Casey's blog and yep, she DOES make fun of the kids and their parents. I don't know that that's an intentional maliciousness or just "venting," but the angry comment was likely due to your description of the tone there becoming more and more virulently anti-parental choice on education.

And for what it's worth, I DO have children in public school. I understand the respect issue you outlined here and that idea of running into someone's living room and yelling. But there is also the concept of "fighting words," I just think that line got crossed in that post at Casey's, either from the original post or (more likely) the lack of defense of homeschoolers as the comments spiraled out of control, and then she got hateful comments reflected back to her. Not that it's nice to do. But it is very understandable that it happened.

I think the parents should decide most everything, really, until the child is old enough to have some say-so. Not the teacher who has not raised her own children yet. And I don't get what business is it of hers if a student eats chocolate chip pancakes, cookies or a plain old chocolate bar or two washed down with a pop for breakfast. The kid got fed, right?? These sorts of posts just reinforce the idea some folks in the homeschool community have that the schools want to take over all aspects of parenting and get into their business. Surely there are other things that can be concentrated on such as... oh, I don't know... order in the classroom?

I'm also sure the homeschoolers whose children are able to learn well at home are NOT the ones transferring into public or military-base schools. I mean, I guess I could go into the local homeless shelter, point to a few guys and go, "LOOK! This whole idea of home-ownership? It doesn't work! These two guys in the cots over here tried it! It was a disaster!"

I'd submit to you that your friend's opinions are skewed precisely because she doesn't see successful homeschoolers. We can also point to very well-educated children from public schools as well.

But the difference between colossal failure in public school and that in home school? We pay for the public schooling in bad schools. At least when homeschoolers are critical, they can say that they are forced to financially support a system with which they may disagree.

Just saying.

[Casey]

It's unfortunate that some people chose to express their negative opinions of me through this outlet. Having not seen the original post and the resulting comments in which I was called (among other things) a whore and the town I live in was posted, it is unfair for someone to say why the post was taken down. I do not make fun of my students, I post funny stories just like a parent would. If you knew me in "real" life, you would know the hours I devote to my students and my profession. Unfortunately, you chose to make a personal judgment, using someone else's blog as a vehicle, based on my posts regarding a very difficult week at work. If you have an issue in the future, you are welcome to post on my blog or email the address I have posted.

(And just in case you are wondering, the parents told me the child is very sugar sensitive and reacts badly when given sugar. However, they decided for the first day of school they should give her chocolate chip pancakes for fun. Yes, it is their choice. However, I believe it is advisable to set your child up for success. Again, this would be something to discuss with me if you have a question. Also, I do not teach in a public school. I teach in a private international school.)

Becca and I seem to have had a civilized, adult, and yet frank discussion. I'm sorry you were not able to help in continue in a positive direction.

[Mrs. C]

"Continue in a positive direction???"

THIS blog post seems to concern itself with what the proper response to outrageous comments about homeschooling on other blogs might be. I'm responding to THIS post, because I can't possibly respond to a removed post, no matter how good your reasons were for taking it down. Personally? If I really believed homeschooling stunk, I'd have left the post up and moderated and/or deleted comments, but I do understand that sometimes it's not worth the hassle.

I've had a few doozies myself, though my actual name and town have not been printed on my blog. Do you know why I use a pseudonym and leave out the name of my Missouri town? In large part, because I still have older children in public school (long story), and I am speaking out against restraint and seclusion rooms. You know, locking kids in closets? Paddling them? It's outlined in our student handbook. Hey, I'll freely admit maybe I'm a little biased against teachers in institutional establishments after what we've been through with my autistic child. That's not socialization. He's homeschooled for a reason. Sure, he doesn't see many kids his own age. But he isn't locked in a closet at home, either.

So I'll admit that it's at least possible that I was unfair in my judgment, but most of my ire was actually at the fact that it *seems* nothing was done about the anti-homeschooling comments that came later, and I wrote a few refutations to the idea that teachers usually know best or that homeschooling doesn't work. I thought my comment made it clear that my suppositions were based entirely on Becca's quotes and post.

And on the chocolate pancake thing? It certainly read like parental criticism to me because at the time you didn't disclose important background information about this child reacting badly to sugar. Not that that's my business, but if the pancakes are thrown in as a salient point about her behaviour, it's worth including.

IMO you may be the nicest person on the planet (I don't know you! It's possible!), but you can't possibly have a "civilized, adult, yet frank discussion" when you include quotes like, "socializing your kid with other unsocialized kids does not alleviate the problem" in reference to homeschoolers.

You know, the socialization thing really kills me. Do you think that locking my kid in a closet on a regular basis is going to cure him of his autism? Well, *most* school teachers don't. But that doesn't mean that all schools match this ideal, or that institutional schools are always some sort of great place to learn to socialize.

I know a few things about school. I've moved to something like 11 different public schools during my childhood. My children have been continuously attending ps here for 11 years (I know, I just used the number 11 twice. But it's true). How much do you know about homeschooling?

No, really. I'm asking that nicely. How much do you really know?

Now, sometimes people react out of anger because they feel attacked, and it's possible I've done that. I'm sorry if you felt unfairly castigated. Mind you, jumping over to your blog, calling you names and printing your hometown are NOT ways to respond to blog posts we don't like. Ever.

[Lexi]

Hi!
I'm the "mean" comment girl from Casey's now deleted posts. If I may, I'd like to clarify a few things. Yes, I was rude, but there is a lot of back story. Is that the way I should have handled it, probably not. But can any of you truly say you've never lashed out in anger?
So to clarify, after commenting on someone's posts, you are emailed all the new comments. I have every single one and in none of them was Casey ever called a whore, that is a flat out lie, that this was in any of the POSTED comments.
Casey replied to my post (the one in this blog concerning if she had permission to post pics of her students) saying she did have permission, and that the parents signed waivers to allow her to post the pics and comments that she did. To this I replied:
"I am actually really glad that had permission to post the pictures of the children, especially since with the information that you've disclosed, it took about 3 minutes to figure out what school you teach at. I know me personally, I would never want my child's teacher to say and post the things that you have, but if your students parents have read what you've written here, and have no problem with it, then I'm in no position to quarrel with it. "

The town that she lives in, she has posted on her blog, in fact even though she edited one post, there are still others that disclose this information. And I'm not talking about "figuring out" where she lives, I'm talking about posts that say in HER WORDS "We live in XXXXXX" So I'm sorry, but I really felt the need to comment, not to say anything negative, but to clarify what was actually said in the deleted posts. My personal opinion is that she did NOT have permission to post those pictures and as soon as she realized she basically put out enough information that someone might show her bosses what she had written in her blog about her students and their parents, she deleted the entire post, and started on this whole "someone crossed the line with personal information" when that simply isn't true. I am truly "done" with Casey, even though she continues to play victim , I just really felt the need to correct what was said that was incorrect.